The Minakamis

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#1 by kominarachromer
2018-08-06 at 04:44
I don't want to start an edit war, so let's discuss this like civilized people.

For context, considering you seem to have little to no experience with the games at hand: Subarashiki Hibi's plot is a remake of Tsui no Sora's. It's not 1-1, but they're obviously still hit many of the same story beats. First View corresponds to Down the Rabbit Hole II, Third View corresponds to Looking-Glass Insects, and Fourth View corresponds to It's My Own Invention.

In the case of Mamiya Takuji, Takashima Zakuro, Otanashi Ayana, Riruru, and Yokoyama Yasuko, the character entries for Subahibi and Tsui no Sora are marked as instances. Wakatsuki Kotomi is a bit of a special case, since two character bear her surname within Subahibi. Kagami fits the role of Kotomi almost exactly, but I'm willing to accept that some people would consider them separate characters. That's not what I'm here to argue about.

In Tsui no Sora, the protagonist of First View is a male student named Minakami Yukito. In Subarashiki Hibi, the protagonist of Down the Rabbit Hole II is a female student named Minakami Yuki. A few days ago, I linked the two entries together. Today, you removed the relation. I added it again, with some justification for my decision, and then you seemingly completely ignored what I said and removed the relation again. That's where we are now.

Here was what I said while restoring the relation:

It's not simply reusing the name. The two resemble each other and take many of the same actions. Down the Rabbit Hole II and First View are practically identical. While you're making these useless edits, why don't you remove the relationships for Zakuro, Takuji, and Ayana as well? I'd really appreciate that!

Let's ignore the snark at the end for now, and instead look at the actual justification for my decision. Ignoring Jabberwocky and all events succeeding it, (essentially an addon to the almost direct remakes of DtRH, IMOI, and LGI,) Yuki and Yukito are practically the same.

The main arguments you seem to be relying on is the name difference and gender difference. While it is true that Yukito and Yuki are spelled with different kanji, the two name are obviously meant to resemble one another. Yuki contains "岐" and Yukito contains "行"; both kanji which essentially translate to different forms of the word "line". This is ignoring the fairly obvious fact that ゆきと is one character off from ゆき. The change to the name is meant to show the change in gender - much like how you would name a male child John and a female child Jane - not to show an actual difference between the character. Either way, the family names for both characters are 水上 read みなかみ. I don't think that the "different names" argument is entirely valid. Besides, Frederica Bernkastel's relations aren't affected by differing names, and the connection between those two characters is arguably more circumstantial than the Minakami characters.

But, that's fine. Many characters have similar names with the same kanji and practically identical appearances. You want solid evidence that the two are the same, right?

As I've established before, Yukito and Kotomi are the only two characters in Tsui no Sora who do not directly reappear in Subarashiki Hibi. However, they are both replaced by characters fulfilling the same purpose. In the case of Kotomi, it's the Wakatsuki twins. In the case of Yukito, it's Yuki.

If you're still not convinced, watch the Sca-DI approved link, then come back. The OVA is heavily cut down and extremely low budget, but it conveys the basic beats of the plot, and should give you a basic idea of what goes down in First View. After that, as you seemingly have no experience with Subahibi, go ask someone to explain to you what happens in Down the Rabbit Hole II; I'm not going to spoonfeed you on that one. Afterwards, you can decide whether you think I'm still full of shit or not.
#2 by thewayfarer
2018-08-06 at 06:49
I was only responding to that reversion because not only I was in disbelief because the two characters are different, but the way how you told off delusionparadox with provocation because you disagree. It makes me or any other veteran user contributors think they're trying to justify their own ideals.

Here's a bit on my end here. I've been doing my own research and I'm looking up on the possibility that Subarashiki Hibi ~Furenzoku Sonzai~ is a remake of Tsui no Sora. And that was *before* this thread was created. I checked Wikipedia and some Japanese visual novel information sites to see if Subarashiki Hibi ~Furenzoku Sonzai~ is a remake. Unfortunately, I can't find any evident proof it ain't no remake. That leaves few critical questions unanswered, but the only thing I know is it just *shares characters*. But how these characters appeared in a future, possibly separate VN, without warning? To me, my money is that it could be just coincidence. Or the character designer could be like "I'm bored, can we bring the characters I made in the first game, into this new project we're making?"

As much as I know when I theorize, most people in the past in my user contribution experience (which is before I entered the VNDB community) have so far accepted my challenged edits (revisions, changes) with little resistance.

But I'm not going to argue here because the point is that I haven't experience the plot at first hand. I'm just only reading a book by its cover. But, I can point out you haven't reveal and explained 'why' the plotlines for Yuki and Yukito in each respective games are "similar". *And I'm not going to spend 15-30 minutes watching your video link of one episode* because you can't spend 10 minutes drafting a detailed example of each plotline to back your theory. I mean, learn how to be detailed in like around 3 sentences or less.

But in the future: You need to watch what you say. User contribution is about sharing information and collaborating with others. And just by displaying oppression can lead to chaos. Nobody wants to listen to a dictator justifying to their own ends. It's why you wanted to start a safe user discussion with me...which is also being displayed on public visual novel discussion boards.

Today, you removed the relation. I added it again, with some justification for my decision, and then you seemingly completely ignored what I said and removed the relation again. That's where we are now.
And...check back. Do you recall that *I* removed your relation..."twice?"Last modified on 2018-08-06 at 06:54
#3 by kominarachromer
2018-08-06 at 07:16
I admit, I was mistaken. I didn’t really look at the username. My bad.

I mainly added the discussion boards in case other users need the information in the future.

Onto the main point; this’ll be a bit long winded. Tsui no Sora was originally made in Macromedia Director, an engine not specifically tailored to visual novels. Wanting to rerelease the game, KeroQ’s staff began work porting the game to BGI, a more specialized engine. However, the original writer, Sca-DI, found that the original game fell short in many areas; mainly in detail and philosophy. Therefore, the Tsui no Sora remaster became Subarashiki Hibi.

The plot of First View is something like this: Minikami Yukito, after Takeshima Zakuro commits suicide, begins to investigate the circumstances surrounding her suicide, after his childhood friend Kotomi claims that Zakuro had no reason to commit suicide. After talking with Ayana Otanashi, a strange girl with seemingly inexplicable knowledge about the incident, Yukito discovers that Zakuro was connected to a gloomy boy named Mamiya Takuji prior to her death. Kotomi later disappears, after which Yukito and Ayana discover that she attempted to find Takuji. Yukito finds her in the space under the school pool, and Takuji dies.

I could summarize DtRH2’s plot seperately, but it hits the same notes. Zakuro commits suicide, Yuki starts investigating it, Yuki discovers a strange connection between Takuji and Zakuro, her childhood friend gets abducted, Takuji dies. It’s more in depth than First View, but the stories are obviously the same. I don’t know why you or delusionparadox disagree so vehemently with me on this.
#4 by thewayfarer
2018-08-06 at 08:26
Well I guess if you didn't reach your expectation, you might as well try again until it does...

This is only a curious question: How'd you find this piece of information after all? Did you grew up with it or something or you followed every of KeroQ's progress back then? After all, I figure most of those "behind the scenes" information is lost in the past. That's why couldn't find some in the present.

I'm not very adamant I disagree. I was only upset back there because of the way you said and because I hardly doubt my own theories. I gave my own 5 sentence explanation as well (and I'm glad we're not escalating this further so far; civilized, heh).

Still, even if it is confirmed the two games are similar, it's still hard to believe even with these conclusive cases because I always rely on the easily accessible profiles and their characteristics. Just saying.Last modified on 2018-08-06 at 08:42
#5 by kominarachromer
2018-08-06 at 17:44
Surprisingly, that piece of information isn't too hard to find. Frontwing did an AMA when Subahibi was released in English. That, combined with known technical issues with the original version of Tsui no Sora, makes it fairly clear how development started on Subarashiki Hibi.

It is a kind of difficult-to-explain connection. Again, I refer back to Frederica Bernkastel; it's not immediately obvious what the relationship between the two is without reading the VNs they originated from.


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