Tags suggestions/fixes

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#1 by pabloc
2013-01-07 at 23:20
Various tags suggestions scattered around random threads can be easily missed and lost, so I made a single thread to gather everything I remembered.

To the point:

Monster sex tags:
- g988 should be a child tag of g996. Also, it should be renamed to "Consensual Sex With Monsters" (with "Creatures" variant as an alias). Rape should be covered by the separate tag (that I just made - g1640).
- g178 also should be a child tag of g996.

Bondage:
- g220 should really be a child tag of g1117...

High Sexual Content issue (mentioned in t2748/6#127 and later posts):
- g304 should have a bit more specific description, currently it's redundant, as it basically means "more sex than in g236". I'll think of something later.
- how should we deal with VNs with neither high nor low sexual content (v44, v15, v238, v97 for example)? I'd say that not tagging them with neither g304 nor g236 and leaving only g23 is a good way to deal with them. If g23 is really intended ONLY as a placeholder, then we'd need a "Medium Sexual Content" tag or something, which is a rather bad idea IMO.
- Anyway, can somebody do something with v15 and v44? They don't have enough H-scenes to warrant tagging them with g304...

Mindbreak tag (copypasta from t3488):
- a child tag of g147. Description:
"One or more characters in this VN are subjects of mind break - a severe and/or continuous trauma is too much for him/her to handle and causes mental breakdown. Possible effects include, but aren't limited to:
- becoming a nymphomaniac/sex-slave.
- turning into a lifeless husk.
- snapping/going insane."

Sexual slavery issue (also form t3488):
- Leave g219 where it is. Remove the Choukyou alias. It's description can be left as is or modified to something like that:
"This VN contains scenes where unwilling character(s) are brainwashed, usually through rape, until they start to enjoy it and turn into mindless sex-slaves."

- A new tag under g1456. Name: "Sex-training role-play". Alias: Choukyou. Description:
"This VN contains scenes of S&M roleplay, where the M character gets trained to be S character's slave. No matter how brutal it may look, the M character isn't entirely opposed to it, and he/she enjoys it (even if a bit reluctantly/subconsciously at first)."

Other things:
- t3043 - just to remind myself to maybe go through that wall of text someday and convert it to Echo-friendly, TL;DR version. :P
- t3610#7 - in case it gets lost somewhere.
#2 by takata
2013-01-08 at 09:12
^ I might go through all that one day soon, but for now I'll just suggest a quick fix.

Timed Choices parent tags:
Please make g1468 a parent tag of g847.

It seems organised to have a thread for tag discussion and a thread for trait discussion. ^^
However, we're probably eventually going to overfill these threads with multiple parallel topics, some of which should be allocated their own thread. >.<
Still, this seems a good place to post the final changes for moderators to carry out. ^^
#3 by echomateria
2013-01-08 at 12:11
Thanks for gathering them all in one place pabloc, I indeed have hard time keeping track of them all since I just can't read every thread every day. :)

Based on your summary,
-made a series of changes to monster sex tags organization.

-"g304 should have a bit more specific description, currently it's redundant, as it basically means "more sex than in g236". I'll think of something later." << I don't really have an idea on how to handle this, so I'll leave it to you guys to come up with an idea for now.

-" Anyway, can somebody do something with v15 and v44? They don't have enough H-scenes to warrant tagging them with g304..." I locked those both at -3.

-Restored the Mindbreak tag with the description provided.

-Sexual slavery and Choukyou are fixed.

-Timed Choices moved.

Having separate threads to discuss them and one thread to list the results of the discussions in a summary to apply them is really a good idea. Keep up the good work!
#4 by space-ranger
2013-01-08 at 13:55
- t3610#7 - in case it gets lost somewhere.
Write t3610.7 instead and the link will go to the right post rather than the start of the thread. Much easier for lazy people (like the majority of us :P )
This feature is written in d9#3

Likewise t2748/6#127 should be written t2748.127

I noticed a lot of "misused" board features in posts by regular posters recently. I wonder if I should try to write a tutorial with specific examples to the common mistakes. The current documentation contains all the needed info and great for looking up how to do specific stuff, but it's not that great as a "schoolbook" for learning. It's more like a reference book and very few people looks up references to features if they are unaware of the existence of such features.

Keep up the good work!
I fully agree. VNDB wouldn't be VNDB without efficiently working tags.
#5 by takata
2013-01-09 at 04:48
I think making the guidelines more complete would be a bit better than a tutorial, but don't make the guidelines too long either.Last modified on 2013-01-09 at 04:49
#6 by usagi
2013-01-09 at 14:35
About g1646 - there are two typos in the name. Can someone correct "Varied Titlle Screens" to "Varied Title Screen"? Ah, and in aliases "changing screens" to "changing screen"?
I think it should be singular, not plural.Last modified on 2013-01-09 at 14:47
#7 by usagi
2013-01-16 at 02:04
About g1651 - I forgot to edit tag's name to "alternate costumes" instead of "alternative" since it's a bit shorter. I think it's important to keep tags name length more short. On other hand if it sounds more awkward - do not change it then/It's difficult to judge for me since I am not English speaker myself.Last modified on 2013-01-16 at 02:05
#8 by chipp12
2013-01-17 at 11:39
link
this one looks SO creative...
#9 by gabezhul
2013-01-17 at 11:46
Probably from someone who doesn't understand how the DB works... I wonder how many such tags Echo had to deny in the past...
#10 by takata
2013-01-17 at 11:49
^ No way that will be approved. o.o
See d10#2.2. Other parts of vndb keep track of English versions of VNs. No need to have a tag for it.
#11 by gabezhul
2013-01-17 at 11:56
No way that will be approved.
I am vacillating between my choices for answer. Should I go for a tired sounding "Duh."? Or maybe I should go with a flamboyant "Well, cha?!" Or maybe just stick to the basic "No shit Sherlock."? Ah, but I should not forget the classic "Thank you Captain Obvious" either...

Owww... So many choices, so many choices... >_>
Ah, wait! I know! How about this?:

"Well duh, thank you but no shit Captain Sherlock, cha?"

Yes, that sounds good. You are welcome. :P
#12 by takata
2013-01-17 at 12:10
If you can't choose one then choose them all. xD
If only that worked for every choice.Last modified on 2013-01-17 at 12:10
#13 by hybrid-being
2013-01-31 at 06:00
Good Endings? Could be usefull for games with high amounts of rape for example. One could argue that there is g1112 which could be excluded, but adding a specific tag would save people from figuring out on their own whether this tag was forgotten or not.Last modified on 2013-01-31 at 08:53
#14 by echomateria
2013-02-01 at 00:34
A Good Endings tag would apply to 99.2% of all games here, so I wouldn't think searching for it be of much help. Especially with the existence of the tags like Only Bad Endings, High Amounts of Rape, etc.
#15 by hybrid-being
2013-02-01 at 09:29
Dang, totally can't argue with that. It's just that presense of tags like High Amounts of Rape doesn't always mean Only Bad Endings, but from cover and screenshots it sometimes looks this way. So i was thinking a specific tag should exist for this kind of VNs. Perhaps something like Good Route then?
#16 by overmage
2013-02-01 at 11:31
I would think that a novel without the 'Only Bad Endings' tag automatically means there is at least one Good Route - therefore precluding the need for such a tag.
#17 by hybrid-being
2013-02-01 at 17:30
Well, the lack of Only Bad Endings tag in cases stated above makes me wonder if it was forgotten/overlooked/not yet set. Not much of a reason for a new tag after all, i guess.
#18 by pabloc
2013-02-01 at 18:43
Adding redundant tags won't solve the problem with untagged VNs. If you need reliable information about untranslated, poorly tagged VNs, using Japanese sources is the best idea anyway.

That aside, since there's nothing new in t3610, I guess we have reached the consensus about restoring the Ahegao tag, so:

- g1317 - new alias - "fucked silly". New description:
"During sexual scenes one or more characters has ahegao faces.

The Ahegao is a lust-filled, overly exaggerated orgasmic expression. It usually features rolled up eyes with teardrops/sweat at times, wide open mouth with the tongue sticking out and blushing cheeks.

Use this tag only when this facial expression deforms the character's face to rather extreme degree - when it can be described as ugly and improbable in real life sex."
#19 by hybrid-being
2013-02-01 at 22:43
I didn't propose this tag as a mean to solve a problem of untagged VNs. Rather as a way to indicate that an unspecific VN which reeks of Bad Endings (not that much of those link) may have a Good Ending. Like v2864 for example, cover, screenshots, no info on protagonist and Bad Endings tag. Now, does it mean someone was not specific with the tag or there is a Good Ending after all?
Also, i call upon a precedent, Sexually/Not Involved trait was approved despite arguments like "Instead mark the ones that are involved with sex with a relative sexual trait".Last modified on 2013-02-01 at 22:45
#20 by overmage
2013-02-02 at 03:24
@19 the thing is the problem simply lies with insufficient tagging. That will not change whether we use the lack of 'Only Bad Endings' or 'Good Endings Exist' as a tag to denote this.

If a vn has no information the problem is that it has no information. that's it. Not rocket science. As #18 pointed out, adding redundant tags won't solve the problem with untagged VNs - think about it. You say, 'then how will we tell if a vn without the Only Bad Endings tag has a good ending or simply was untagged? Well, guess what? If you use the 'Good End Exists' tag - how do we tell if a VN without the Good End Exists tag has no good end or simply was untagged? There's no difference! You know why? Because the problem is that untagged vns remain untagged and we haven't eliminated any uncertainty at all!

Also, the answer here is, yes, there are good endings. Why? Because the tag used there is 'Bad Endings'. Did you actually read the description of g672?

This game has bad endings as well as the good, happy ones

That the person tagging chose this tag instead means two things: Either a good ending exists, or the original tagger made an error. If the latter is true, then just change the tag yourself to reflect this. If the former is true, then yeah...

VNDB has never been very consistent about such things but all things considered I'd very much like to avoid redundant tags being a habit. Just because we already have one doesn't mean we need more. that's not how things work; if you have one pile of shit it doesn't mean it's ok to have ten.Last modified on 2013-02-02 at 03:31
#21 by hybrid-being
2013-02-04 at 04:15
@20, i was thinking something along the lines - if good endings do exist, than no one will tag it with 'Only Bad Endings' (duh), but that would be vague for those unfamiliar with VN, so a kind soul could have put a 'Good Endings Exist' tag instead. Well, it does kinda sound a bit redundant with this logic, still could be usefull for several games out there.
But i admit, i never read the description for 'Bad Endings' tag (i was thinking it was something like 'there are bad endings in the game'). With this my proposed tag is completely redundant, yes.
#22 by takata
2013-02-04 at 11:59
I did some digging and found some old tag edit requests that haven't been carried out yet.

t3548: "Doctor Hero" aliases
g1542 - Needs "Doctor Hero" and "Physician Hero" as aliases

Bad Endings tag:
I think the bad endings tag description could use a slight change. This would make its description applicable even to its child tags. I think that's how the tagging system is supposed to work. O.o?

description:
----
This game has bad endings. It may or may not also have good, happy endings or occasional boring normal endings (like the "You didn't get any girls, but oh well, life continues..." ending).

It's possible to get Game Over by getting killed or making a wrong choice or your choices may lead cute heroines to their bloody deaths or terrible scenes of rape and torture.

If a game is not tagged with the "Only Bad Endings" child-tag, it is implied that the game has at least one ending that is not a bad ending.
----Last modified on 2013-02-04 at 23:16
#23 by barfboy
2013-02-13 at 07:00
I'm going to use this thread rather than create a new one as it's somewhat related.

I notice a misuse of tags for Otome games, like this
link

I see that there IS some yuri tagged in this but it's a 1. That makes me certain the other tags don't belong. Fighting Heroine, Demon Heroine, Royal Heroine. Either those belong to the Protagonist and should be Fighting Protagonist, Demon Protagonist, Royal Protagonist. Or they belong to the Heroes in which case they should be Fighting Hero, Demon Hero, Royal Hero.

Using the Heroines tags is confusing because I don't know who they apply to and can cause confusion in the search of VNs as well because it can come up when people are looking for Fighting Heroines and not expecting Otome games.

Is there a simple fix for this?

edit: Also this is obviously not the only Otome game with this problem I've seen, just the most recent so a simple fix is best, whatever it may be, because it will likely need to be applied several times.Last modified on 2013-02-13 at 07:03
#24 by pabloc
2013-02-17 at 00:20
It's not limited to otome games, all VNs with female protagonists tend to be mistagged and the protag often gets the heroine's tags. The best tag-coverage has the male protag + female heroines situation, there are less tags for heroes or female protagonists. People are lazy, so they often use the already existing, but unfitting tags, instead of spending a minute on making new, fitting ones. -.-'

Unfortunately, there's no simple fix for this, unless you can somehow telepathically convince people to use proper tags. :P
#25 by takata
2013-02-17 at 13:51
The best fix I can think of now is to ask a moderator to overrule the incorrect tag votes.

If all of the following conditions are met, you might want to ask a moderator do that for you.
- There are too many votes on the incorrect tag for your one vote to make enough difference.
- You are SURE that that tag has been used incorrectly.

Here's an example of overruled tag votes: link.

Of course, this "fix" requires you to point out every misused tag to the moderator, so it might not be the simple fix you were looking for. O.oLast modified on 2013-02-17 at 13:52

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