Is this VN Kusoge now?

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#1 by luther
2017-09-09 at 03:44
Same deal with Dies Irae. It got English Translation now you see people trying to shit on it and now say it's not the "kamige" the JP privileged people claim it to be. Why is that?
#2 by ghostsoul
2017-09-09 at 05:09
I dunno, but i have a feeling that it is overrated.
#3 by ghostsoul
2017-09-09 at 05:13
Btw, for now - slice of life part is the best part for me. Mystery - ok. Strange predictions - meh. Bulling - double meh.Last modified on 2017-09-09 at 06:09
#4 by asaki
2017-09-09 at 05:57
Well, I think some people would pretty much find that overrated which is normal if the people in question expect much (Understandable) in the first place. But kusoge? Well, unless you're an elitist JOP who like to spread the spoiler just because it was translated (In which I would like to say it's better if the elitist became the fanatic of Japanese nukige), I don't think it could reach kusoge level very fast.Last modified on 2017-09-09 at 16:34
#5 by eacil
2017-09-09 at 06:35
Who gives a fuck about the opinion of people using words such as kamige and kusoge? They are pretentious shit who think so mighty of themselves they can crap a standard for all of us. Unfortunately, the only thing which comes to light from such rotten way of thinking is the how familiar and childish need for attention and difference.
This thread is stupid and so was the previous one. You are not on touiter here so go away.
#6 by kiru
2017-09-09 at 10:01
Uh.. kusoge just means it's crap, kamige means it's great. You know, in Japanese. So given how we also use moege, nakige and whatnot, I don't see how it's pretentious to use these terms for "it's great" or "it's bad".

If there's one thing that has to stop, then it's the "JOP vs EOP" war that's going on, for reasons that are beyond me.
#7 by tyrog
2017-09-09 at 10:04
I prefer the terms "great game" or "bad game", and I think it's neither. I am honestly baffled by the ratings of Subahibi on both EGS and VNDB. I can understand that the Japanese would find the many Western works and philosophical ideas introduced in the work exotic and appealing, but readers familiar with them should base their judgment more on plot, character, and writing, and these I find less than satisfactory in some respects. My main problem with Subahibi is the structure: you experience the same events again and again from different points of view. I don't find this particularly compelling; I'd rather read about something new. I still think it is a good novel, but I would pick, say, Fate/Stay or Grisaia or Higurashi or Dies Irae over it any day of the week.
#8 by arkady18
2017-09-09 at 11:01
In my opinion (I read it two years ago in Japanese), this game is far from perfect and probably has more cons than pros. I hated a large part of it. Yet still I loved it.
Down the rabbit hole I was boring for me. Down the rabbit hole II was good. Invention started well, proceeded boringly, finished well. Insects was so fucked up and had a few (many) unnecessary scenes. Jabberwocky I and II were so simple, predictable and nonoriginal, but so well written that I had to love them.

What's good in this novel is not the plot itself (which could be summed up in a few words and is not that epic at all), but the way the story is told. You have to suffer through Invention and Insect to get to the real thing, and only then you'll discover why it's acclaimed as a good novel. There are a few average scenes here and there that are portraid as epic by the author, actually becoming epic only for that.

But I can see how many readers can't like it.
#9 by aakari
2017-09-09 at 14:48
yes, no, maybe @infernoplex
#10 by kazeno
2017-09-09 at 15:00
Peer pressure and negativity bias. With reviews everywhere, stupid comments, random internet people being random, we are exposed to much more negativity than otherwise thus the masses blindness hate or start the game already influenced by haters.
#11 by infernoplex
2017-09-09 at 15:05
Well, having read only up to chapter 4 at the moment, I still didn't find the real 10/10 moment of this VN but I am guessing there is one in the later parts of it. As for the parts I have read so far, I think it's a VN with at least 8/10 rating, or slightly more above that. I can't say yet if it was overrated by the community but depending on what I see at later parts, my opinion of it may change. But I wouldn't really put this into a "kusoge" bucket, no matter how it unfolds its mysteries.
#12 by kominarachromer
2017-09-09 at 15:43
I'm assuming most of the lower reviews (<6) are either trolls, or people that haven't finished the game. While it's true that Subahibi might be a bit overrated, you can't deny that it's at the very least competent in how it gets a story across.Last modified on 2017-09-09 at 23:19
#13 by clowred
2017-09-09 at 18:38
I think this game is somewhere between a great game and a bad game, yet it manages to reach both parts of this scale. To say it straight, this is by no means food for the brain, no matter how attractive the "philosophy" genre seems, most of this novel deals with the metaphysics which is also fueled by the use of drugs by the very same characters we have to follow to actually understand anything about this story. The high number of POV is also an annoying factor as I enjoyed some and downright hated the others. In conclusion, this story could have been told in a way simpler manner while retaining its core beauty, yet the author decided to make it more mysterious by adding elements that you couldn't fully understand unless you reach the end. It may seem logical, yet after finding out about everything in this story you might feel like all that smoke and mirrors technique was more of an annoyance to the story rather than a good thing. I rated 9, not for the mystery nor the characters, but for the way it described the influence of fear and hate towards a group.
#14 by being
2017-09-09 at 20:03
Welp I loved it at least, almost everything about it in fact. One of the few times I can agree with the VNDB rating, I think most other VNs are overrated but this one is not.

I can understand that this isn't everyone's cup of tea but for example I see only complaints about the multiple perspectives but I actually loved that part about the novel and I think it wouldn't be anywhere near as good if it was written in a simpler way. Perhaps it's a difference in how much importance we place on "plot" because I focus more on emotional resonance, themes, narrative, art etc than the pure synopsis-like plot which doesn't interest me. Try explaining SubaHibi's "plot" in a more straight forward manner and it ends up as utter banality. The whole reason the game is good is because of the complex narrative, artistic & philosophical sense. It's amazingly cohesive and I can't imagine how difficult it must've been to write this thing.
#15 by ghostsoul
2017-09-09 at 21:28
I feel like i will drop it. Nothing interesting for now. I'm speaking about 3 and 4th chapters.
#16 by fuukanou
2017-09-09 at 22:26
While reading this VN, it made me wonder, am I just really stupid, or is all the philosophy quoting just awkward to understand and by-and-large useless to read? I found that vast swathes of text was just "sure yep I just read it but no meaning was gotten" and at some points I understood more of the Japanese than the translation due to the archaic nature of the source material.
I think that CH3 (Invention) long overstays its welcome, but I understand how important it is. Game really picks up in how interesting it is very late into CH3 onwards. I must admit, I haven't found another game that incites a greater sense of disgust and anger in one chapter (you can probably guess which one). I didn't like any of the endings though, they weren't satisfying and just seem like a "let's just wrap this up quick" and dropped in hype. Leaves a lot of my questions unanswered as well...

Also if I had a nickel for each time someone says "It's X but it's also not X" right I'd have made a cool profit on buying this game. Also bugs me that there's only one male voice actor... but if something's gonna be cut it's got to be male voices.Last modified on 2017-09-09 at 22:30
#17 by sup-chan
2017-09-09 at 23:24
It's pretty good, but it's not a 10/10 like it was hyped up to be. For me it personally drops the ball after Invention since I was in for the "strange and mysterious stuff happening from the POV of different people" more than the actual philosophy clases and that's when it stopped being about the story itself and about the characters inner conflict and way of life (or at least it was when it changed from being the focus to a second plane). Didn't particularly liked the fact they throw the twist like that either, there was no big reveal or anything, it was all foreshadowing without any kinda climax, so I was disappointed by that too. You could say that it was never about the twist either, but I always like it when they do a "big" reveal and seeing the characters react to it (disgust, shock...that kind of thing). Half the cast knew about it and the others didn't actually realize it, so that never happened, unfortunately.

Doesn't help that Down the Rabbit Hole I is godawful yuri trash (I liked the ending, but everything else...), Insects was weak bullying (I'm really tired of the "worst thing ever" for a female is being raped, there are far worse things than that) even though it had some good parts (seeing the interactions we saw from a neutral POV felt nice and Kimika's ending after all the stuff that happened to her was very satisfying) Which Dreamed It is meaningless filler (in my eyes), and half of both Down the Rabbit Hole II and Jabberwocky I is boring, slow paced and full of SoL with characters I couldn't care any less about trying their hardest at awful attempts at comedy (the author should never try write a VN of that genre), so the explanation of what actually happened (backstory) prior to the events in the other routes (Jabberwocky II) didn't feel really climatic either, it was just like "ok, this happened, whatever". After how good Invention was I thought like "holy shit, if the rest of the VN is that good, I can understand the praise", but sadly, it peaked too soon and never recovered, the rest of it was a trainwreck in my eyes. I did like the Lovecraftian implications with Ayana's identity, I don't know if is the truth, but I would like to think that she's indeed the crawling chaos itself based on how she acts and her smiling CG at the end of DtRH II.

Tl;dr Liked the second half of Down the Rabbit Hole II and loved Invention, liked Takuji, Kimika and Hasaki, didn't care about anyone else, so the ending felt unsatisfying and nothing topped Invention for me, so it was disappointing, albeit still a good read. That being said, I never would've made it out of DtRH1 if it wasn't because of the praise people gave it, it was really, REALLY bad and whoever says it was a necessary evil or "intentionally bad" should really just shut up. The artstyle is hard to the eyes at the start too, specially some characters sprites and their proportions, they are below 2006 tier in quality.Last modified on 2017-09-10 at 00:00
#18 by kominarachromer
2017-09-10 at 00:17
(the author should never try write a VN of that genre)

...?

I mean, half of his VNs are comedy, and he's gotten a manga in a major magazine that's primarily parody. bit late for him to "try" on that one.Last modified on 2017-09-10 at 00:20
#19 by sup-chan
2017-09-10 at 00:37
Just my impressions, I don't really give a damn what he has done or not.
#20 by luther
2017-09-10 at 05:45
All this just gives the conclusion that VN's should never be localized since they will be picked apart and thus lose their status as a 10/10

I dread the same would happen for Soukou Akki Muramasa or Sayonara wo Oshiete.
#21 by being
2017-09-10 at 06:19
#17
I thought SubaHibi was hilarious many times, honestly. No, not Rabbit Hole 1, that shit just sucked (up until the last half hour or so) but there was a lot of outright hilarious moments often involving Kimika, Takuji in Invention, or the journalist. I'd be hella surprised if you read through the whole thing without laughing at some of this shenanigans. Desk fucking? Teacher pissing herself riding naked on a bike? Clearly you guys just need more elixir & bunny sex in which dreamed it? I thought the comedy was really strong. I'll agree with you on the SoL, though, that was the weakest part of SubaHibi I think, especially in the first chapter it was quite terrible but I also found Jabberwocky I a bit of a slog at times. the other part I wasn't so fond of is the bullying in Insects which while I like it in spirit I think it didn't work that well in execution mostly because it's too fucking monotonous to warrant such ridiculous length. I get it, these guys are evil, Zakuro suffers, noone's gonna help her, I don't feel that 8 or however many hours was needed to convey that.
#22 by molok
2017-09-10 at 09:26
If it's not good it's just that the translation is terrible.
#23 by infernoplex
2017-09-10 at 14:39
I don't really think the problem at hand here is whether these "kamige" VNs will get localized or not... The real problem here in my opinion is that there's lots of parroting going on and on about some of these visual novels, they get artificially hyped up to high heavens and once the people see that it's not something they really like, then we have lots of trashing going on. It's not that these VNs were bad or anything, they were actually decent or good, but not as amazing as the certain members of the community made them out to be. Maybe 100 readers who read it in JP liked it very much, but if you give 10000 readers a chance to read it, then there's bound to be people who obviously won't like it and will find the whole thing blown out of its proportions.Last modified on 2017-09-10 at 14:40
#24 by herki
2017-09-10 at 16:36
Definitely a shit game now that it's been translated. Everyone should vote it a 1/10 like I have.
#25 by cnkx
2017-09-10 at 17:53
Tags don't interest me. Too dark for my taste. I'd rather not torture myself in finding out if I like it or not, as I most likely won't and then end up leaving disappointed because of its nature.

But I guess that's irrelevant, considering I will never judge this VN just because it's not my thing as that would just be retarded. It's worth noting though that many people may be in my situation and instead are getting into this VN not knowing that it has things that they don't like, only to then rate it badly based on that.

Just the fact that a VN which seems this dark is being sold on Steam is an instant red flag, many uninformed normies will be attracted.

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